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| David and Alain ARE THE BEST!!!! http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=9636 |
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| Author: | Andy Zimmerman [ Sun Dec 03, 2006 5:31 am ] |
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David Collins and Alain Lambert are the Best!!!! I have always struggled with intonation. I am currently intonating the All Koa guitar. In the past I have struggled with how much to move the brake point for intonation. When sharp...I moved it back.... When flat I moved it forward. I never new how much. NOW with the excel calculator/spreadsheet, I just enter the cents off and VOILA!!!!!! It was dead on. You two have save me a TON of trail and error work!!! THANK YOU THANK YOU Any of you that have had difficulty with intonating a saddle, USE THIS SPREADSHEET/CALCULATOR!!!!! |
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| Author: | Joe Beaver [ Sun Dec 03, 2006 5:36 am ] |
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I know what you mean Andy. The system David described is great, and then to have it followed up with Alain's excel sheet made it perfect!! I saved it all on my computer last night. Now even a dummy like me can intone like a Pro!!! |
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| Author: | Alain Desforges [ Sun Dec 03, 2006 5:54 am ] |
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Can someone e-mail me that spread sheet? I have a nut/string space calculator I can trade (thanks again Anthony Z!!!) |
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| Author: | j.Brown [ Sun Dec 03, 2006 6:10 am ] |
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Yes, where can we get that spreadsheet? -j. |
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| Author: | Andy Zimmerman [ Sun Dec 03, 2006 6:30 am ] |
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It is on this thread TID=9126&PN=1#%23130810">Other thread |
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| Author: | JJ Donohue [ Sun Dec 03, 2006 6:33 am ] |
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Teriffic spreadsheet. Thanks Alain and David!!! |
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| Author: | Lillian F-W [ Sun Dec 03, 2006 8:08 am ] |
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Andy, that link dumps me back at the entrance to the forum. |
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| Author: | Alain Lambert [ Sun Dec 03, 2006 8:28 am ] |
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Thanks all, David did the hard part (thinking). The sheet is not very sophisticated but it does what it should Here is the link to the discussion Intonation Calculator |
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| Author: | Shane Neifer [ Sun Dec 03, 2006 8:53 am ] |
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YUP!! Thanks a WHOLE lot! Shane |
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| Author: | Don A [ Sun Dec 03, 2006 9:25 am ] |
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Thanks guys it is appreciated. I made sure to save your methods and spreadsheet for future use. |
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| Author: | Lillian F-W [ Sun Dec 03, 2006 10:07 am ] |
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Thanks. |
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| Author: | Serge Poirier [ Sun Dec 03, 2006 5:14 pm ] |
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Thanks from here too! |
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| Author: | jamesneunder [ Mon Dec 04, 2006 4:24 am ] |
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Having been at this game since 99, this is one of those rare posts where one must pay attention. Years ago having studied Franks Frets.com, he made us all aware of this formula. Now, David and Alain, have put street clothes on this so we all can use it without the tremendous mental gymnastics. I propose an OLF Luthiergem Trophy Award for this double submission of the excellent description of the process by David, coupled with the simple and effective spreadsheet by Alain. I echo the kudos given by the others David and Alain. Do I hear any seconds from the floor? |
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| Author: | David Collins [ Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:05 am ] |
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Thanks for the words of encouragement. I wanted to add a quick note to the topic though, reminding folks that it's easy to get so caught up in achieving "perfect intonation" that it won't take long before you start pulling you hair out. Temperament is another topic, but it's worth reminding that we're working with an imperfect scale as it is. When aiming for the best intonation, the biggest challenge is the width of the range of human error. If you try to set the intonation within a 1 cent tolerance, you quickly find that you can play the same note 5 times and get as many as 5 different readings even when trying to press and pluck consistantly. Then add that sometimes a not is fretted by itself, sometimes it is also pressed in two places (as in a bar chord), sometimes you slide up to it, sometimes down. The hand positions of different chord shapes may put the finger at varying positions behind the fret for the same note. The list goes on and on, and it's quite easy to say that there is at least a +/-2 or 3 cent margin of error for most players. My approach is to shoot for the middle of what I feel the margin of error is for that particular player and instrument. This means when I'm setting up instruments for one of the local studios, I will lean toward setting to a gentler playing style (even if the player is going for that "live" style, in the studio they will rarely grab and play with the same oomph as they do under stage lights in front of a crowd). For a strictly first position player I may lead toward more nut compensation. If I'm refretting a 2 year old guitar with frets that have been worn to nothing, I obviously know that the player has a very heavy left had grip, and am going to lean toward a little more compensation. Of course this goes on and on, but all comes down to recognizing there is no one perfect setup, and different players and styles have different needs. So although equations are certainly nice and can be very handy to figure things out, it is still just one precise calculation that relies on a whole lot of not so precise variables. It's good to lessen errors in one small part of the process, but it still relies on the skill of the one doing the work, as well as thier willingness to pay attention to details. I have to admit that I used this as a learning tool for quite a while and it certainly helped me much. However in recent years I've found that I can look, listen, and shape a saddle without measurements or formulas with as good of results as the method I described above. I still do use it when that little voice tells me it would be the quicker or better route for that instrument. More often I guess I approach it as more of a Fermi problem, with reassuring results. In short, this is not the one-size-fits-all method for setting intonation, but it can be very useful (and for geeks like me, a little fun). Just a reminder not to pull your hair out, or think that this will bring your instruments to a precise perfection where one does not exist. |
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